May 18, 2026, 9:05 p.m.
Genocides happen where maniacs come to power and the people remain silent. Pavlo Kozlenko, director of the Territory of Memory Genocide Museum, debunks myths about the "gentle" occupation of Odesa and explains how the city forgets its own tragedies. This is a conversation about why memory is not about intimidating children, but about education, and why a nation that doesn't have a minute to stop at nine in the morning may not have time for its own future.
Pavlo, do you remember the moment when history became your personal inner need?
I want to say that history was not a profession for me at all. I am not a professional historian, I am a professional lawyer. Everything I do is just a memory, first of all, of my relatives who were killed during the Holocaust during the Second World War. From the moment I realized that there was no one else to speak for these people, I began to deal with this memory. I am sure that memory is us.
You research not only the Holocaust, but also the Armenian genocide, the Roma genocide, the deportation of the Crimean Tatars, and the Holodomor. Do you see a common mechanism by which society gradually gets used to the dehumanization of the "other"? What do all genocides have in common?
First, when dictators or political maniacs come to power. Second, it is when the people are silent. First, someone votes or does not vote and remains silent, and then it is too late to do anything. That's why we are talking about the Holocaust, the Holodomor, the deportation of the Crimean Tatars, or the genocide of the Roma. These are all consequences of dictators coming to power.
Is it possible to rationally explain the phenomenon of genocide? Or is it always a point of failure of human civilization?
It is difficult to find a common foundation for the events that happen to a particular people. I think that this is, first of all, a point of failure of human civilization. How can we justify the events that are happening in our country today? How can we explain everything that our neighbors are doing to us? How can it be that these people came to our city yesterday for a vacation or for concerts, and today they want us dead? How can we justify this?
Pavlo Kozlenko. SCREEN SHOT: Intent's YouTube
Why does the memory of mass crimes so often become a field of political struggle rather than a space of empathy and comprehension?
This applies not only to the memory of mass murder. In general, there are many topics that are used only for political moments. This has happened, and unfortunately, it will continue to happen. That is why we, who do this from the heart, have only one goal: to ensure that people killed on ethnic grounds are not forgotten and that these events never happen again in the future. This is our common slogan.
Is there a risk of "competition of memory" when different tragedies are being pitted against each other?
This is nonsense. There can be no competition in matters of memory. Every single nation that suffered from genocide deserves to be honored. And when someone starts competing today about where there were more victims, I always say: For a child whose mother was killed, it doesn't matter how many other people died. This is his or her personal tragedy. Therefore, it is wrong to count victims in this context. We need to study the causes of each genocide, the reaction of society, and, most importantly, whether there was responsibility for these crimes. Today we want responsibility for Irpin, Bucha, and our other cities.
You talk about different tragedies at the same time. How do you talk about them in a way that doesn't diminish any of them?
First, you just have to talk, because we are still silent about many things. In my opinion, we should speak not in terms of numbers, but in terms of specific fates. When schoolchildren come to us, they don't keep the numbers about the number of occupied territories in mind. We need to tell them about a specific family that lived in this city. We can't tell young people everything, but we can emphasize what happened to our people, to our country. We are conducting a kind of "education": who is Raphael Lemkin, what is the Convention, how did it all begin?
How did the Holocaust tragedy in Odesa differ from other regions of Ukraine?
Odesa was the capital of the Romanian occupation zone, Transnistria (the area between the Southern Bug and the Dniester). There were different laws here. If we compare the Holocaust in Odesa and in Poland, there were no gas chambers or concentration camps like Auschwitz. There were death marches. In the winter of 1942, people from Odesa were deported on foot 200 kilometers to the north of the then Odesa region: to Bohdanivka, Domanivka, and Akmechetka. According to the Elie Wiesel Institute, more than 350,000 Jews were murdered in this area.
What myths about Odesa during the occupation remain alive?
This is a myth about how "everything was good under the Romanians." Who had it good? Those who looted Jewish property. The Odesa archive is full of applications: "Please give me the things from the apartment of a Jewish fugitive." There were entire offices at the mayor's office that sold this property. They say that restaurants, theaters, and churches were open... But at the same time 120,000 local Jews were murdered.
Are there any places in Odesa that thousands of people pass by every day without knowing that a massacre took place there?
There are two-story houses near the Tribune of Ukrainian Heroes square. In October 1941, there were gunpowder factories on this site. People now go there to the tram stop or to the shopping center, and few people know that more than 23,000 Jews and 3,400 war prisoners were killed there. In the Soviet Union, it was impossible to talk about this because of the ideology of "one Soviet people." Now we must remember that these were one and a half million Ukrainian Jews, citizens of this country.
Can you name one street or building in Odesa that is a silent witness to the Holocaust but still has no memorial marker?
In my private archive, there are more than 200 acts of the State Commission of 1944. These are 200 houses in Odesa, where there are lists of murdered women, children, and the elderly. We cannot put a plaque on every house, because then the whole city would become a cemetery. But there are iconic places: Prokhorovskyi Square or the Odesa-Sortuvalna station, where people were taken to death camps in freight cars.
You have been researching the fates of the Righteous Among the Nations for many years. Which story of salvation impressed you the most?
The Odesa region had more than 200 Righteous during the Second World War. I knew many of the rescued personally. But I will tell you about Mykhailo Brotsky, who now lives in Israel. He and his mother were hidden in Odesa by a professor, the head of the 3rd hospital in Shevchenko Park. When the neighbors began to suspect that Jews were being hidden in the house, his mother was taken to a ghetto. She managed to convince the officer that she was not Jewish. She returned and said to the professor: "I don't want to put you in danger. I will leave my son with you, and I will go to hide on the outskirts of the city."
Mykhailo recalled the summer of 1942, when he was a boy playing soccer in the yard. His mother came and waved him to come over. He was so eager to run after the ball that he shouted, "Mom, I'll come back later!" She replied: "Okay, I'll come back next time." There was no next time - she was arrested and killed. This man blamed himself all his life for not coming to her then. In 80 years, he managed to get his savior awarded the title of Righteous Among the Nations.
Did working with the theme of human evil make you more pessimistic about people or vice versa?
There are different aspects. In extreme conditions, people often show themselves unexpectedly. Yakiv Maniovych, an honorary citizen of Odesa, told me how he escaped from a convoy that was going to Akmechetka and returned to the city. He had nowhere to go, so he took the risk of going to his yard. There he met his neighbor, who had been a terrible anti-Semite before the war. Maniowicz was sure that he would turn him in, but the neighbor took him inside and hid him. People are different, and it's impossible to judge them at first glance.
What is more important to you-the accuracy of the facts or the ability to return a human voice to the dead?
The main thing is to return the memory. When I talk to survivors, I ask: "Don't give me dates, tell me who was with you. Tell me their names." Facts and figures in different archives often differ. But if a person was killed, it makes no difference whether it was on December 22 or December 25. These are someone's parents, grandparents, or grandparents. The numbers are statistics.
Pavlo Kozlenko. SCREEN SHOT: Intent's YouTube
Do you have an exhibit in your museum that visitors stay by for the longest time?
We have a candy dish that was 100 years old back in 1922. A Jewish family received it as a wedding gift. They went through the ghetto with this candy dish and kept it. Now we have it. We are not creating a "room of fear". Our goal is education, not intimidation of children.
Do you feel that after February 24, 2022, Ukrainians began to perceive the topic of genocides differently?
For more than 20 years I have been asked: "Why the Holocaust again? The Soviet Union is gone, there are almost no witnesses left." I have always quoted Professor Dan Michman: "It happened to us and to our parents. And maybe it will happen to you and your parents. And no one knows whom G-d will choose to play the role of Jews next time." Today, when they want to kill us for speaking Ukrainian or reading books, many people have finally realized how it was then. Modern society must learn from the Jews how to preserve the memory of its people.
How difficult is it to maintain a private museum in Ukraine without systematic state support?
The state does not need us. If no official has come to us in two years to say, "You have created an important project, how can we help you?" then they are not interested. But society needs it. We have many events, lectures, and people from all over the world come to visit us. There is no budget - there are rent and utility costs, which I cover myself or with the help of friends. We do not wait for the state, we just work.
What role does the Jewish community play in the life of Odesa today?
Jews have always played a huge role in the culture, science, and economy of Odesa. This is a city where nationality has never been the main criterion. If you are a decent person, why not cooperate with you? I don't pay attention to idiots in the comments who insult on the basis of nationality. A normal educated person can have his or her own point of view and discuss, but not insult.
Do you communicate with Russian Jews and what is your attitude to the high-profile marriage of the children of Russian and Ukrainian rabbis?
I do not communicate with them, and I had no friends there before. As for the marriage: people do not understand that Chabad is a religious movement where the rabbi is a messenger. Today he is in the Congo, tomorrow he is in Italy. The children did not meet in Russia or Ukraine, but while studying in New York. If they love each other, what can you say no to them? Love is a personal thing.
How do you see the ideal museum of memory in Ukraine in 20 years?
If a State Holocaust Museum has not been created in 30 years of independence in a country where one and a half million Jews were killed, I am not sure that anything will change. Our society lacks great patrons of the arts, like in the nineteenth century, who could donate a building or a park to the city. But I hope that in 20 years we will still gather and remember those who protect us today. Remembrance is everyone's business, not a pathos with flags. If the state comes, thank you, if it doesn't, we will still hold our conferences and lectures. Everything will continue.
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