In Odesa, Russian is the language of security guards and cleaners - writer Ostap Ukrainets

Is there a correct Ukrainian language and how can surzhyk be positioned? We talked about this with writer, cultural activist, and translator Ostap Ukrainets. Watch the interview about the Soviet policy of language rapprochement, the difference in styles, consciousness, and Odesa integration.

For a certain period of time, the issue of Surzhyk was discussed very loudly. Is it okay to speak surzhyk, how can you comment on it?

In my opinion, surzhyk is a process, not a subset of the language. Surzhyk is what a speaker does with the language when trying to communicate. Surzhyk is always at the intersection of several linguistic sections. It is a rather exclusive phenomenon for Ukrainian, Russian, Belarusian, and Russian. Because for this to happen, the languages must not only be mutually integrated, but also quite genetically close. They have to have a large part of common lexical baggage: a large part of words that are spelled the same but read differently. If we consider Surzhyk as a transitional phenomenon, then most of the questions disappear. Surzhyk is a transit. Because Surzhik is a transition from Russian to Ukrainian. This element of prestige has disappeared when you move from a smaller city to a larger one, or from a village to a city, and you want to switch to the language of the metropolis. Russian is no longer the language of the metropolis.

According to my personal feelings, even in Odesa, consistent Russian is the language of security guards and cleaners, who this morning told me that they have the right to listen to "Russian music" throughout the Langeron. Russian is marginalized, even for people who speak it as their everyday language. The main and functional language of communication is Ukrainian. That's why today surzhyk performs a constructive function, like safety wheels on a bicycle. Especially when the languages are close, you cannot switch from one to the other at the snap of a finger. And the more language experience you have, the harder it is to do. But when the languages are close, there is this transitional state through which you can make the transition at a more comfortable pace. Actually through the spoken language. Surzhyk is a spoken phenomenon. It comes into art from the spoken environment.

Photo: Intent/Natalia Dovbysh

How did the thesis that Ukrainian and Russian are close to each other come about?

Ukrainian and Belarusian developed in parallel and, one might say, simultaneously from a common source in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Russian was outside this process. The language of the northeastern periphery-the medieval Kyivan state-developed much longer, by several centuries, and under completely different conditions.

The notion that the difference between Ukrainian and Russian is not that great is the notion that Ukrainian should be approaching Russian. This is the implication from which we are starting here. This thesis is not based on objective reality, but on Soviet policies of language rapprochement. And so we have come to the realization that this thesis is "bullshit." Thank God!

Do you see a certain language strategy in Ukraine today? We say that there is a recovery strategy and an economic strategy. As for the language, the processes are somehow organic and chaotic. Official structures understand that only the Ukrainian language is used, but I don't see any line of introduction into everyday life, except for the war.

There is no mainstream strategy, at least not a communication strategy. That is, we do not have, first of all, an umbrella, universal definition of what we understand as Ukrainian. When we talk about the transition to Ukrainian, do we mean the transition to the 2019 spelling standard in everything, including the spoken language? Or do we mean the transition to the Ukrainian we learn at school? Or do we mean just a functional transition to Ukrainian as a language of communication? Because these are different things. We do not have this concept of language. We do not have any communication of the difference between the school standard of theoretical grammar and the communicative level at which the primary understanding of Ukrainian takes place. We lack such things in the language issue in many places. That is, there is no holistic state communication. There is language legislation. It is functional within its limits. This means that it is very limited in its functionality, and without this additional component, it will not work outside the official sphere.

The key point here is that we are not working in any way with everything that language legislation does not cover. Namely, the language in which a person will be formed until the age of 18. At school, it seems to be partially regulated, but not really. Because the discussion about the language of communication during breaks is absolutely absurd. Obviously, it should be Ukrainian-the only sane option. For some reason, this discussion is very lame, as if it is not an issue that is being raised. And everyone is running around, complaining, throwing up their hands about children and teenagers speaking Russian. Of course they speak Russian, they are raised by parents who were raised in Russian. For them, it is the primary language of child-rearing. Even if they are in everyday life, they understand the necessity of everything, even if they speak Ukrainian in contexts defined by law. We do not make efforts to strengthen this transition, which has happened naturally to them. This is a big problem with humanitarian policies in general. When historical circumstances are such that something happens as if by itself. In fact, it does not happen by itself, but in response to many factors that shape the situation. In 2022, we saw that people were switching to Ukrainian, and since they will, we don't need to make any further efforts. And there seems to be some progress in this direction. There is an awareness of the problem. Will there be a comprehensive approach to all this? It's very hard to say, because for this comprehensive approach, someone has to coordinate several ministries in their language policies.

There are a number of individual cases stipulated by the language law regarding the use of the state language. And then there is the private sphere, which is not covered by the law at all. This means that the state does not interfere in this area. But the state intervenes in contexts around this sphere, such as book publishing, education, and everything that forms new speakers. Some problems will become fewer, because we have put out some fires. For a comprehensive approach, we need to make the same coordinated efforts. We need different departments and structures to work for one common result. I don't have a simple recipe on how to achieve this. We just need everyone responsible for these issues to do their job. And this will not happen, because it will never happen that all those responsible for humanitarian policy will simply do their job. I remind you that we still do not have a Minister of Culture.

Photo: Intent/Natalia Dovbysh

Let's talk a little bit about Odesa. You mentioned Russian music at the Langeron. Is there anything good that you saw in this place?

Everything except the Russian music at the Lanzheron and the very strange people at the Philharmonic who told the tour group about the Westerners who were organizing the festival-everything else was perfect. In this respect, I remember Odesa in contrast to 2017, when I was here last time - it's heaven and earth. There's just a lot of Ukrainians on the streets, and I'm convinced that it's definitely not all tourists, it's just people who communicate with each other. It seems that there are two large demographic groups, one of which is older people, with whom we will not do anything. And as cynical as it may sound, we are just waiting for this Soviet generation to pass away naturally. And on the other hand, there are people who don't care, who are still here. Outside of these two groups of people, which are decreasing every year for various reasons, but thank God they are decreasing, everyone else has no problems. That is, all of those people, I am absolutely convinced, communicate in Russian with their relatives or friends without any problems, but they proactively speak Ukrainian with strangers. Any communication, even the most minimal out-of-household communication, any minimal level of official interaction, is automatically in Ukrainian. In 2017, I could not dream of such a thing. Back then, I heard Ukrainian twice. Once it was spoken by a hotel receptionist, and the second time by a taxi driver.

Марія Литянська