"The war deforms society," - Ihor Kucher, pastor of the Baptist Church

"Forgiving your enemies is not an instant action, but a long and painful process," says Ihor Kucher, pastor of the Grace Church of the Evangelical Christian Baptists in Odesa. In the conversation, he explains how war changes a person's ability to forgive, what happens to faith in the face of violence experienced by Baptist communities in the occupied territories, and why the language of service is also a choice of identity. The pastor speaks frankly about difficult contacts with Russian Baptists, about losses that have not yet been fully realized, and how the church tries to remain a place of support without becoming a place of destruction.

Listen to the full interview and read the abridged version on Intent...

How did you come to pastoral ministry? What were the key moments that shaped your vocation?

This is an interesting question, because the vocation to the pastoral ministry begins long before a person realizes it - in fact, from childhood. I grew up in a church community, and it was there that God began to work with my heart.

I remember one event, I was about five years old. During the service, I suddenly felt that I understood what was being said, that it was close and interesting to me. And since then I have always paid attention to everything that happened in the church. In this way, God gradually formed a vocation in my heart.

Later, when I was about 15 years old, I made a conscious conversion - a conscious act of faith and the beginning of my Christian life as a teenager, student, and young adult.

After the army, I felt a strong desire to study. In 1993, the first Odesa Theological Seminary was opened. I read their almanac and there was a clear response inside me: "Here it is, mine." That's when I stayed in Odesa.

The same year the history of Grace Church began. Later, it turned out that I not only stayed at the seminary and became an Odesa resident, but also became part of the church.

What are the challenges facing Protestant communities in Ukraine today?

Protestant communities are not a separate reality detached from the fate of the Ukrainian people. Therefore, all the modern challenges we face are the same challenges the country faces.

It is war, it is fear, it is the loss of family and friends, it is daily anxiety and trials. We cannot and do not want to separate ourselves from the people we live among. So our fate is common, and our experiences are also common.

How does the community respond to the events of the war and what are the main concerns of people who come to you today?

I think that people are most concerned about the future. We, as people, always want to see the future - the return of peace, reconstruction, the opportunity to live and develop. Every family dreams of having children and seeing a better life for them here, on their land.

That is why people who come to church often face one of the deepest problems - the loss of the feeling that tomorrow can be better. And perhaps it is the restoration of this hope that is the greatest need today.

Has the community dynamic changed during the full-scale war? Attendance, requests, composition of people?

Of course, people change because war deforms society. It also affects those who come to church. War destroys not only cities, it destroys churches.

Before the invasion, there were about 500 people in our community. When the war started, more than half of them left. Today there are about 200-250 of us. If we take into account those who do not attend all the time, it is about 300.

Ihor Kucher. PHOTO: Intent / Natalia Dovbysh

How does the church help people work with trauma, fear, and loss?

The calling of the church has always been to preach God's word and reach out to the human heart. War is a gross evil that exposes many problems. But these problems exist even without war: loss of relatives, loss of work, family problems, illness, death of loved ones.

The historical calling of the church - at all times, even during epidemics or personal tragedies - is to give people hope and support. To help them survive where human strength is no longer enough.

Do people come to you with the question: "Where was God when...?" How do you try to answer such requests?

Yes, this is a very old and deep question - the question of God's protection. The main criticism is this: if God is omnipotent, why doesn't He intervene? If He is good, why does He not do good in times of trouble? War only exacerbates these questions. And they arise not only among those who are far from faith, but also among people of faith.

For example, we pray for the fate of Ukraine every day, and the situation has remained extremely difficult for four years. So it is natural that such doubts arise in every heart. But we should not be afraid of them. We must boldly look for answers - and there are some.

Should the church influence social processes? If so, how exactly?

I believe it should - and it already does. This is part of the church's DNA: to serve society. The church does not exist for its own sake; it should be focused on people and their needs.

Historically, many social initiatives were launched by the church and later became state-owned: hospitals, shelters, orphanages. Therefore, the impact on society is not something external to the church, but its natural vocation.

What is the community's attitude to interaction with other faiths? Are there any examples of cooperation?

The war has largely leveled interfaith differences. From the first days of the invasion, the question "with whom to work?" did not even arise. Common misfortunes and challenges put us in completely different circumstances.

Today we have no conflicts between denominations. There is solidarity, mutual respect and a common desire to serve people.

What Christian principles, in your opinion, need to be rethought or reminded the most today?

The issue of sacrifice. The Bible speaks of love as sacrificial love. Ordinary love is often centered on oneself, while Christian love is directed to another.

War especially tests this aspect: can we forget about ourselves and sacrifice for the sake of our neighbors?

What book, besides the Bible, do you most often re-read in difficult times?

I have a large library, but I rarely re-read anything. The Bible itself is a whole library, a variety of books written in different eras, each of which answers its own life questions. This is its perfection.

Today I am especially interested in historical books about Ukraine. I realize that I know our history in general, but I don't know much about its beautiful, inspiring pages. I feel the need to rethink our past and rediscover it.

You teach a course on spiritual formation. What are the main ideas you try to convey to students?

The main idea is that God designed man to be versatile. A Christian develops intellectually, culturally, and internally in his or her ethical nature. The integrity of the personality is God's plan for man.

My task is to show the way this personality is formed and to help students move along it consciously.

What is the language of service in your church? Is it more about tradition or about the needs of the community?

Odesa has long been a predominantly Russian-speaking city. I am originally from Zhytomyr, but I also lived and studied for many years in a Russian-speaking environment. The war forced us to rethink this aspect.

Today we, like the whole society, are consciously taking steps towards the Ukrainian language. I personally made a decision to switch to Ukrainian: I learn it, read it again, translate it, although before all my teaching was in Russian, and 99% of my theological library was in Russian.

We are gradually switching to Ukrainian in our service: we sing Ukrainian songs, translate those that used to be in Russian. It is not easy, because for some people it is new and unusual. But our position is gentle Ukrainization. It is right before God, before people, and before those who are defending the country.

In your interviews, you often emphasize not the welfare of the individual but the benefits for others. Why is this important to you?

Because Christian love is a sacrificial love. Human development occurs not when a person thinks only about himself, but when he goes beyond his "I". There is even a term for this - self-transcendence.

It is such people who leave a mark on society: doctors who discover something new, military men who sacrifice their lives. A person reveals himself or herself when he or she channels his or her potential for the sake of others. This is a Christian norm.

Do you forgive those who attacked us? How do you rethink forgiveness in the context of war?

Forgiveness is not an easy topic. It is not an automatic act. We can say, "I forgive," but the internal process is very complicated. Now we as a nation are comprehending what forgiveness is, especially when it comes not to a personal offense but to the enemies of the state.

The war made this process long and painful, and everyone goes through it in their own way.

Ihor Kucher. PHOTO: Intent / Natalia Dovbysh

Can a Christian forgive and at the same time strive for justice and victory?

Yes, these things go together. Forgiveness has conditions. There is even the concept of premature forgiveness - when it is devalued because a person has not realized his crime and does not repent.

The best way is when the perpetrator admits guilt and tries to change the circumstances, to make amends. Then forgiveness gains weight.

But today, when the war is ongoing, forgiveness of enemies is a holistic, long process. We cannot force it. We can only strive for justice and victory, and leave the right of judgment to God.

How do you communicate with Russian Baptists today? Is there an understanding of what is happening?

Unfortunately, there is almost no communication at the moment, primarily because it is impossible. And if it does occur, it is only with those who share our position. There are such people, and we know them.

At the same time, we see how easy it is for a person to fall victim to propaganda-even a believer with moral guidelines. This is a serious lesson for us: to always be vigilant so that we ourselves do not become victims of someone else's influence.

Do your churches operate in the occupied territories? How is the life of the communities there?

Churches exist, but the situation is difficult. Many communities are destroyed or closed. In some cases, buildings have been taken away, and communities have ceased to exist as such. The life of the church there is either interrupted or takes place in a very limited, dangerous format.

Are there things in the Bible that are still difficult for you to accept or comprehend?

I cannot say that there is anything unacceptable. There are places that I have not yet fully comprehended, but they are accepted by faith and reason, they are logical and rational. I may not understand everything deeply, but I don't see an internal contradiction in this.

Is the Holy Spirit present in a person who does not consider himself a believer?

This is a deep biblical topic. There are different levels of God's presence.

The Holy Spirit works with every person, even those who do not call themselves Christians. What awakens humanity, conscience, good feelings, and the ability to ask for forgiveness in us is the action of the Spirit of God on a person.

But when a person becomes a Christian, the presence is different - internal, not only an influence, but also an indwelling.

The Holy Spirit works with everyone, even with criminals. This is a fact.

Can a person grow spiritually outside the church?

As a cultural person, yes. He can get an education, develop, attend the theater, sing, read. But this is only partial development.

A person is a combination of secular and spiritual dimensions. And without a community he cannot be formed as a Christian. The fullness of spiritual life is possible only in a community, in connection with God and the Church.

Was it difficult for you to answer the question about forgiveness?

Because without the war, the answer would be simple: "We have to forgive." And yes, we teach people to forgive.

There is an important thought in the Bible: do not let evil overcome you. If you respond to evil in the same way, you double it and allow it to distort you. Therefore, on a personal level, we can teach forgiveness: respond with good and do not become an instrument of evil.

But in times of war, this is a completely different category. When you, as a citizen of Ukraine, are faced with gross, massive evil, forgiveness cannot be quick or automatic. Love for enemies is not love for relatives. This is a different category: treating the enemy as a human being, but as a criminal. Not to become like him. Not to lose humanity.

This does not exempt him from punishment, even death, if he came with weapons. But it means not letting evil break you from the inside.

We hold meetings with the families of the victims. One woman, Svitlana, who was at Azovstal and survived Russian capture, said that prayer saved them.

Every night she and other women prayed to Our Father and thought about Ukraine. They made a small flag out of threads. They never went to church, but in captivity, prayer preserved them as individuals and gave them the strength to survive. I know for sure: when a person relies on God, he or she has support. And this support is not inside us, but outside us. A person needs support that is bigger than himself.

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